157
( 64 )
in their
Government deliberately sketched out on the ion is. I have no desire to make this a Govern- 20th June. After sending to the Secretary of State the extract from my speech delivered at ment question, I think it is one of the most im- portant which has ever come before this Council, this table on the 12th June, I said, "The remedy and I feel sure my colleagues of the Govern- is, as your Lordship will see, a very drastic one. ment if they have strong opinions will stick to It may result in the destruction and re-building them. I am sure they realize the weight of re- of one-tenth part of Hongkong, responsibility which is involved It will certainly necessitate the extension in every direction of houses fitted for Chinese occupation on improved sanitary principles. It may do good and that money may be saved. will doubtless cause a general increase in rents. That, I say, is an invertebrate reason, and an increase in the cost of living, as well as a matter of pure speculation. I think such a general increase in the rate of wages. It will Commission as proposed is unnecessary, as it is also necessitate the increase of the storage liable to increase the delays which are sure to capacity of the Tytam Water Works so as to arise over this very big question. If the hon. secure an additional supply of about 80,000,000 member is fortunate enough to carry his motion, gallons of water." Then I went on to say, in he has my best wishes for its success, and I hope paragraph 31-In reply to my speech I may it will turn out better than he expects, and here mention that on behalf of the unofficial result in saving a large sum of money. I do members and the community at large, the senior not want to spend more than is necessary. But unofficial member, the Hon. C. P. Chater, pro- I think, in recording my vote against it, I shall mised that the Government should be loyally at least have acted logically and consistently, and supported in all its endeavours to cope with the in accordance with the weight of evidence placed unfortunate dilemmas in which the colony is before me. placed." This despatch I read to the hon. senior unofficial member before it was sent to the Sec- retary of State-I am not sure whether I read it to Mr. Keswick also-
Hon. J. J. KESWICK-You did not read it to me, Sir.
The ACTING ATTORNEY-GENERAL-Sir, I feel that it is my duty also to oppose this mo- tion. Much of what your Excellency has al- ready said has cut away what I intended to say to the Council, but I now oppose this motion mainly on the ground that the appointment of a Commission is unnecessary. In the first place the decision of the Government-although it is pretty certain what the decision of the Government is-is not final That decision, I may be making too much of this. for I do not such as it is, has been arrived at from two re- see how the hon. member proposes to get his ports, one of the Permanent Committee of the majority, unless many of the members at this Sanitary Board and one of the Housing Com- table are going to stultify themselves and con- mittee, both of which bodies have absolutely re- tract their own words; for my friend the hon. ported in favour of demolition. One report is member for the Colonial Secretariat, who also is based on the experience of those who devoted Registrar General and Protector of Chinese, re- such an enormous amount of time to the plague commended me on several occasions to accept and plague questions during the last four or the advice of the Permanent Committee and five months, and the other is based chiefly on the Housing Committee; the Colonial Treas- the medical evidence, all of which, urer and Dr. Ho Kai, one as chairman and have pointed out before in this Chamber, is the other as a member of the Housing Commit- unanimously in favour of the demolition tee, signed the unanimous report strongly recom- of these houses and their destruction by fire. mending the total destruction of Taipingshan So far as the Government is concerned none of preferably by fire;" the Director of Public those gentlemen who have reported on the de- Works had a representative on that Committee, struction of the houses, or who have given evid- and he is not likely to contradict his advice; Mr. ence in favour of that, have altered their opinions. Belilios at our last unofficial meeting told us he I cannot conceive that they could have altered was in favour of destruction by fire, and gave us their opinions. I have heard it said that they a thrilling account of some Indian city or village have, but I cannot conceive that they should have which was destroyed by fire, and in which no so changed without having informed the Govern- case of cholera had ever occurred since-
Hon. E. K. BELILIOS-No, it was Naples I referred to.
HIS EXCELLENCY-I do not know what the hon. member the Chairman of the Chamber of Commerce has to say. He has just returned from the seat of war, and should know all about the danger of delay. As to the hon. Attor- ney-General, I think I can guess what his opin-
( 65 )
that the medical evidence can be supplemented in any way, surely it is equally as open to the Government as to any Commission, and pro- bably such further evidence would be taken in a much shorter and less expensive way. As your Excellency has said, that seems rather an invertebrate policy. I am afraid that the appointment of a Commission would cause serious delay. It must take a great amount of time. To be thorough the commissioners must go over the whole of the medical evidence, and take the expert evidence of every architect and engi- neer of standing in the colony, and how long do you think that would take? I apprehend that it would take six months at least. If the survey of these houses, and examination, is to take four months or at the outside six months, I think it is fair to say that a Commission to do its work thoroughly will take at least that time, if not longer, and that if they wanted expert evidence the Commission would have to pay for it. I believe on one occasion, during the Fever Commission, a good deal of expert evidence was taken from the doctors-who are regarded as experts-and probably they made no charge for it. But business men, architects and engineers-I doubt whether they would be able or willing to give their time and attention to this without being paid I do not think it would do very much good because I think all the evidence that can be gained is within the grasp of the Government at the present time, and therefore, Sir, I beg to oppose this motion.
The COLONIAL TREASURER-Sir, I should like to say a few words upon this motion. Your Excellency and the learned Attorney-General have dealt with this question so very fully that there remains very little to say. The key note of the proposal seems to be that given by my hon. friend on my right (Mr. A McConnachie). It is a pity to destroy valuable property.' and, Sir, I have myself thought since the com- mencement of the plague, and more every day, that that would come into greater prominence by delay. The dangers of the plague will gradually disappear, will be lost to sight and memory, and the pity of destroying valuable pro- perty will occupy a bold on the colony. It ap- pears to my hon. friend on my right (Hon. A. McConnachie). He has given it as a reason why this Commission should be appointed. Another of his reasons is that he has personally made an inspection of the property, whereas he has reason to believe that the advisers of the Government have gone on hearsay.
The COLONIAL TREASURER continued... I should only like to remark that the Housing Committee consisted of members who have been acquainted with Taipingshan for many years, of architects who know the pro- perty and have had to deal with it for a long time, and of others, among whom was my friend on my left (Hon. Ho Kai) who is as capable of...
Hon. A. MCCONACHIE-Not entirely.
The COLONIAL TREASURER-No, but to a great extent. ...
157
( 64 )
in thoir
Government deliberately sketched out on the ion is. I have no desire to make this a Govern- 20th June. After seading to the Secretary of meat question, I think it is one of the most im State the extract from my speech delivered at portant which has ever come before this Conucil, this table on the 12th June, I said, "Tho romedy and I feel sure my colleagues of the Govern- is, as your Lordship will see, a very drasticment if they have strong opinions will stick one. It may result in the destruction and them. I am sure they realize the weight of re-building of one-tenth part of Hongkong, responsibility which is involved It will certainly necessitate the extension in vote. You may Bay that a Commission every direction of houses fitted for Chinese of this sort will not do harm and that it occupation on improved sanitary principles. It may do good and that money may be saved. will doubtless cause a general increase in rents. That, I say, is an invertebrate reason, and an increase in the cost of living, as well as a matter of pure speculation. I think such a general increase in the rate of wages. It will Commission as proposed is unnecessary, as it is also necessitate the increase of the storage liable to increase the delays which are sure to capacity of the Tytam Water Works so as to arise over this very big question. If the hon. secure an additional supply of about 80,000,000 member is fortunate enough to carry his motion, gallons of water." Then I went on to say, in he has my best wishes for its success, and I hope paragraph 31-In reply to my speech I may it will turn out better than he expects, and here mention that on behalf of the unofficial result in saving a large sums of money. I do members and the community at large, the senior not want to spend more than is necessary. But unofficial member, the Hon. O. P. Chater. pro- I think, iu recording my vote against it. I shall mised that the Government should be loyally at least have acted logically and consistently, and supported in all its endeavours to cope with the in accordance with the weight of evidence placed unfortunate dilemmas in which the colony is before me. placed." This despatch I read to the hon. senior unofficial member before it was sent to the So- cretary of State-1 am not sure whether I read it to Mr. Keswick also-
Hon, J. J. KESWICK-You did not read it to me. Sir.
The ACTING ATTORNEY-GENERAL-Sir, I feel that it is my duty also to oppose this mo- tion. Much of what your Excellency has al- ready said has cut away what I intended to say to the Connoil, but I now oppose this motion mainly on the ground that the appointment His EXCELLENCY-At all events, the senior of a Commission is unnecessary. In the first unofficial member made the contents of the place the decision of the Government-although despatch known to all the other unofficial mem- it is pretty certain what the decision of the bers of the Government. But really, gentlemen, Government is-is not final That decision, I may be making too much of this. for I do not such as it is, has been arrived at from two re- see how the hon. member proposes to get his ports, one of the Permanent Committee of the majority, unless many of the members at this Sanitary Board and one of the Housing Com- table are going to stultify themselves and cat mittee, both of which bodies bare absolutely re- their own words; for my friend the hon. ported in favour of demolition. One report is member for the Colonial Secretariat, who also is based on the experience of those who devoted Registrar General aud Protector of Chinese, ro- such an enormous amount of time to the plague cotomended me on several occasions to accept and plague questions during the last four or the advice of the Permanent Committee and five months, and the other is based chiefly on the Housing Committee; the Colonial Trea tho medical oridence, all of which,
as I surer and Dr. Ho Kai, one as chairman and have pointed out before in this Chamber, is the other as a member of the Housing Commit- unanimously in favour of the demolition tee, signed the unanimous report strongly recom- of these houses and their destruction by fire. mending the total destruction of Taipingshan So far as the Government is ovucerued none of preferably by fire;" the Director of Publio those gentlemen who have reported on the de- Works had a representative on that Committee, struction of the houses, or who have given evid. and he is not likely to contradict his advice; Mr.ence in favour of that, bavo altered their opinions. belílios at our last unoffical moeting told us he I cannot couceive that they could have altered was in favour of destruction by Sre, and gavo us their opinious. I have heard it said that they a thrilling account of some Indian city or village have, but I cannot conceive that they should bare which was destroyed by fire, and in which no so changed without having informed the Govern- case of cholera bad ever occurred since--
ment that their views bad altered. I cannot imagine that they would leave the Government in such a false position by leading the Government to believe that their views were still the same as those on which the Goverument based its opinion, when they were not. Well, if it is thought, when- ever the Government has to come to a fiual conclu- sion on the matter, or when it is really and dually to be determined what is to be done with this area,
Hon. E. K. BELILIOS-No, it was Naples I referred to.
HIS EXCELLENCY-I do not know what the hon. member the Chairman of the Chamber of Commerce has to say. He has just returned from the seat of war, and should know all about the danger of delay. As to the hon. Attor- ney-General, I think I can guess wha s opin.
( 65 )
that the medical evidence can be supplemented Sir, of course there is the argument which in any way, surely it is equally as open to the your Exelleney has touched apoa. Government as to any Commission, and pro. may say This Commissiou can do no harm, People bably such further evidence would be taken and it may d some good." I don't kung. in a much shorter and less expensive way. As your Excelleney has said, that seems rather The evidence of the medical profession as it an invertebrate policy. I am afraid that the Atands shows that the whole of the soil in this appointment of a Commission would cause area is impregnated, possibly with plague germs serious delay. It must take a great amount of certainly it is infected and in a more or lesa time. To be thorough the commissioners must go insanitary condition-and that the total destruc-over the whole of the morical evidency, and take tion of all the houses in it is most necessary. the expert evidence of every architect and engi Therefore you must either cleanse that soil or neer of standing in the colony, and how long do remove it. Then as regards the necessity you think that would take? Tapprehend that it for palling down good houses or the possibility would take six months at least. If the nors of leaving some houses standing while destroy survey of these houses, and examination, is to ing others, that again is a question of expert take four months or at the outside six months, evidence-I do not mean the evidence of amateur I think it i. fair to say that a Commission to de -xarts who go round and look at the houses its work thoroughly will take at least that time but who possess no really practical knowledge, but if not longer, and that if they wanted expert I mean the evidence of architects and engineers, evidence the Courraission would have to pay which is really valuable. I do not wish for a mo- for it. I believe on one occasion, during tha meut to throw any blame or east any slur on those Fever Commission, a good deal of expert gentlemen who have gone through this ares and evidence was taken from the doctors-wha tried to see for themselves what the condition of are regarded as experts-and probably they those buildings is, but I venture to say that their made no charge for it. Bat business med, sight from want of experience may have mis-architects and engineers-I doubt whether they led them. I think if we want further evidence, would be able or willing to give their time and if the Government desires further evidence, attention to this without being paid I do nas sarely they have it within their hands' reach. think it would do very much good because I and ualees the bos, senior unofficial mem- think all the evidence that can be gained is bor's motion means that the Public Works within the grasp of the Government at tus Department is not able, or capable, of doing that present time, and therefore, Sir, I bag to oppose which be wishes this Commission to do, surely this motion. the evidence that can be obtained as to the cou- The COLONIAL TREASURER-Sir I should dition of these houses--and as to whether a car- like to say a few words upon this motion. Your taia house should be pulled down and another Excell-nay and the learned Attorney-General laft standing-is in the possession of the Govern have dealt with this question so very fully that mentor is equally as available to the Government there remains very little to say. The kay uota of now as to a Commission hereafter. I think it is the proposal seems to be that giren hy ny also to be borne in mind that if a Commission hou. frised on my right (Mos. A McConnebial was appointed snob as is proposed by the bon. It is a pity to destroy valuable property.' senior unofficial member, it would really to a aud. Sir, I have myself thought since the com- ertain extent be doing doable work, work which rencement of the plagns, and more every day, was also being carried ont under the Ordinance that that would coms into greater prominenca which has just been read in this Council a third by delay, Tus dangers of the plague will time. I dare say the hon. member will at once gradually disappear, will be lost to sight and guess what I mean. In that Ordinance the arbi- memory, and the pity of destroying valuable pro. irators have to appoint certain persons-no doubt perty will occupy a bold on the colony. It ap experts; architects on the one hand and me- penis to my hou. friend on my right (Hou. A. dical men on the other-to examine and Moonachie). He has given it as a reason why enquire into the condition of these houses, this Commission should be appointed. Another I do not say that it would go to the whole of his reasons is that he has personally made an extent to which the Commission would carry inspection of the property, whereas he has reason their labours, but it would certainly perform a to believe that the advisers of the Government very groat part of the same work as the Commis- have gone on hearsay. sion would be performing. Therefore the survey and detailing of the condition of these hous28 will be of great assistance to the Government in coming to a determination, when the survey is completed, as to what is ultimately to be done with this ares. A Commission, then, going to work at the same time as this survey iain progress would practically mean two bodies of people to carry out the same object. Now,
Hon. A. MCCONACHTT-Not entirely. The COLONIAL TREASURER-No, but to a great extent. I should only like to remark that the Housing Committee consisted of members who have been acquainted with Taipingshan for many years, of architects who know the pro- party and have had to deal with it for a long time, and of others, among whom was my friend on my left (Hon. Ho Kai) who is as capable of
No comments yet.
Private notes are available after approval.